C R Hunt - Feb 22, 2013:

So does thinking about processes rather than objects really constitute different “concepts”? A “concept” is such a nebulous idea anyway, but I would argue it does. For example, I once read an article about a study (found it!) that considered the effect of grammar on assigning guilt. Whether or not a language tended to use more passive or active forms of expression changed the way those witnessing an event interpreted it. Their ability to recall who performed what action depended on whether the viewer interpreted that action as intentional or not.

Interesting read. Does the language which we are fluent in actually change the way we interpret it, or just the way in which we express what has been interpreted? Obviously if the language in question only allows for certain ways an idea can be expressed then that would be more of a limitation in the language itself and not necissarily the interpretation of it. I would assume that in someone who is bi-lingual, the interpretation of an event wouldn’t change but the words and grammar used to express such idea would have to be expressed differently between the languages if one of the languages is more restrictive in how the same thing can be expressed.

I don’t know about other languages but in English it’s all about the verbs. The verb of the main clause is the most important word in the sentence and even though there is only a handful of distinct inflections on each verb, and only two inflected tenses, there are tens of thousands of different use cases (I know, I’ve been enumerating them for my deep parser for English which I have documented in another post).

Even though nouns form a larger lexical class than verbs in English, most verbs can be used as nouns either as a gerund-participle (e.g. Regular swimming improves fitness and health.) or infinitival (e.g. To swim is exhilarating.) Furthermore, native English speakers are in the habit of using nouns as verbs, which is especially annoying to anyone who is trying to learn the language (e.g. The mouse belled the cat.)

@Andrew: perhaps this mostly indicates you are a do-person?

This reminds me of people still living isolated in the rain forest that don’t some concepts in their language like ‘the future’ or counting, don’t know how to express it and simply don’t care about it.

You know, this discussion reminds me of an article that I recently read about Why speaking English can make you poor when you retire.

I guess my thoughts on the matter were shown to be wrong, after all. Here I was, thinking it was because of the cultural degradation of Western Society, when the problem is linguistic in nature. Silly, Silly Dave.

Jan Bogaerts - Feb 22, 2013:

That’s very similar to what I do. I first create all possible combinations that can be build with the input sentence in relationship to all the known ‘phrases’ (n-grams basically). Then the parser figures out which is the best fit against the set of known patterns.

Sounds like we take similar approaches. However right now, I first parse all phrases from scratch and check against the knowledge base afterward. I want to move to a scheme where previously encountered phrases (n-grams) are first recognized and reduced. (The parser would then process the pre-reduced input.) Since each phrase is only stored in the database once (and linked to by other phrases/sentences that use it), the end effect is the same. But pre-filtering input should provide a nice speed boost. We shall see—I’m not very good at databases. So much to learn, so much to do!

Jan Bogaerts - Feb 22, 2013:

I think perhaps it’s the other way round (or a feedback-loop). A good example is the ‘dutch’ language. It’s basically spoken in 2 regions: in the Netherlands and a part of Belgium. Though the language is the same (vocabulary and grammar are shared), the cultures are a bit different (though not much). This is often expressed in the way that the language is used: the type of words that are used and such. I’d say that the Dutch-Dutch is harder, more direct (usually also louder) while the Belgian-Dutch is more indirect, softer, perhaps a little more surreal.

Interesting. Makes me think I should more closely examine the divergences between British and American English. Any examples of “surreal” Belgian-Dutch?

Chad J - Feb 22, 2013:

Interesting read. Does the language which we are fluent in actually change the way we interpret it, or just the way in which we express what has been interpreted? Obviously if the language in question only allows for certain ways an idea can be expressed then that would be more of a limitation in the language itself and not necissarily the interpretation of it.

It’s amazing to think how intimately tied our own capacity for thought must be to our linguistic skills. Like Jan said, those cultures that don’t have easy ways to express certain ideas tend not to care to express those ideas. Or even become incapable of thinking about them. And vice versa: given the linguistic tools, we are able to enhance our understanding of the physical world. As the article I linked to said,

Russian speakers, who make an extra distinction between light and dark blues in their language, are better able to visually discriminate shades of blue. The Piraha, a tribe in the Amazon in Brazil, whose language eschews number words in favor of terms like few and many, are not able to keep track of exact quantities.

The same extends beyond “natural” language to formal languages, including the way we express mathematics and music. Without the structure in place to express them, complex ideas simply do not grow.

Chad J - Feb 22, 2013:

I would assume that in someone who is bi-lingual, the interpretation of an event wouldn’t change but the words and grammar used to express such idea would have to be expressed differently between the languages if one of the languages is more restrictive in how the same thing can be expressed.

So the question becomes: are any widely-used natural languages so disparate that they cannot express a concept? And perhaps more generally, how complex must the expression of a concept be before people cease to value the concept, or no longer have the capacity to retain it?

Many directions for potentially interesting research. Would probably be easiest to study with people in the context of artificial languages. Or mathematics.

Also reminds me of the restricted grammar used by the trainer of Alex, the famous grey parrot. At what level does a sentence’s grammar (the expression of a concept) become too complex for an intelligent parrot to reduce the trainer’s speech into a command it understands?

Dave Morton - Feb 24, 2013:

You know, this discussion reminds me of an article that I recently read about Why speaking English can make you poor when you retire.

I guess my thoughts on the matter were shown to be wrong, after all. Here I was, thinking it was because of the cultural degradation of Western Society, when the problem is linguistic in nature. Silly, Silly Dave.

Ha! Neat article. We must simply eschew tense, then the money will roll in. Or rather, “the money rolls in.” See, it’s working already!

“surreal” Belgian-Dutch?

Well, ‘ceci n’est pas une pipe’, is Belgian, and about is surreal as you can get, cause it Frensh

I read a study once about the differences in ‘jokes’ between various populations (here’s one article: http://esra-magazine.com/blog/post/humor-laugh). Turned out, Belgians (and a few other places in Europe) were mostly into surreal things, like(from the site):

Why do ducks have webbed feet?
To stamp out fires.
Why do elephants have flat feet?
To stamp out burning ducks

If you look carefully, it’s used in a lot of places in our society.

That’s a common joke in American society, as well, though usually enjoyed most among younger children. Another popular joke among children here is:

Q: Why was six afraid of seven?
A: Because seven eight nine.

I must still be a child, because I still find both of those jokes amusing.